Cavemaning, Kino, & Body Language

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[edit] By Tyler Durden

If any of you guys remember back to this time last year when I posted "Operation Mayhem" stuff, you'll recall that I was huge on cavemanning.

Actually I spent about a month or two straight learning how to walk up on girls I hadn't even spoken to, and start making out with them and cavemanning them.

It was funny, and worked well on college. If you subcommunicate the right things (bodylanguage, tonality, and the reactions of people around you), you can get away with this stuff no problem. It's funny shit. Nowadays I have actually dropped caveman from my repertoire and find that its kind of amateur.

I think that its a cycle. There's many cycles in PUA development, and here are a few:

1- AFC (average frustrated chump): spineless emotional tampon, uses friendship as emotional blackmail in hopes to get some ass

2- RAFC (recovering average frustrated chump): not afraid anymore to convey desires as a man, doesn't supplicate anymore

3- PUA (pickup artist): conveys active disinterest, tries to push girls away or even into the friendship zone

Funny, how (1)and (3) are so SIMILAR, and yet in (1) the girl RUNS from you and in (3) the girl the girl frantically CHASES you like a desperate chick-AFC.

Likewise with routines, as CRAIGSD220 said when I was in San Diego:

1- AFC: asks "what's your name" and tries to qualify himself in all his boring logical conversations

2- EARLYRAFC: uses routines as something better to talk about

3- LATERAFC: gets good at having great natural conversations, and the routines are now detectably canned

4- PUA: gets so good, that the routines are like NUCLEAR AMMO in the already super tight conversation

Anyway, the same went with cavemanning. It was direct, and was an improvement, but now I find that I'm working to SURPASS the best natural/confident PUAs in the venue, and hit my own level.

The cool guys in the club aren't afraid to go for it, but the coolEST guys in the club have SO MUCH on their hands that they are DISINTERESTED in anything short of the BEST. And even the snobbiest HB10 is always afraid that she's not the best, which is why active disinterest and negs work.

For guys who believe that HB10s can pickup on this game and aren't impressed by it, they haven't seen a top PUA in action.

Active disinterest works for a variety of reasons, among which are that its a NATURAL mechanism that girls have to sexually validate themselves at ALL TIMES.

For guys who have been indirect for a while, and had the girls begging to be with them, and went for rapport only to find the girls RAN, this is the validation mechanism at work. In many cases, the SECOND the girl is sexually re-validated, you are BLOWN OUT.

Girls need to be sexual validation at all times, because on an emotional level they know that if they lost that, they would not survive. (haa, not actually true, but its how they FEEL)

This is the SCREENING vs. CHASING mentality at work also. It changes the mental processes, same as in SALES.

Anyway, having laid that down, I want to write up a bit on cavemanning and powerful body language.

CAVEMANNING & KINO:

Something that I realized is really key in my game is that I give girls the opportunity to

INITIATE kino, rather than being the one to initiate it myself.

    • KINO IS AN IOI

There are several reasons that people in the community adopted KINO as a tactic.

Among them were studies which stated:

-a sample group watching several photographs were asked to determine who was the alpha in each picture, and they always picked the guy who was taking up the space of the other guy (like he was touching his shoulder or something). So KINO conveys alphaness.

-in a library, a clerk touched the hands of people one day as she would hand back their library cards, and on the day she'd touch people, a higher percentage of people would report back a pleasant interaction. So KINO generates good feelings. Now to me there is a problem with this, as it correlates to MY PERSONAL game. I can't speak for other guys' game, but this is how it correlates to my style. GIVING A GIRL KINO IS AN IOI.

When a girl touches you, you know that she somewhat wants you. So when you touch a girl, you are coming off like you want her. The jig is up - she knows you want her. Again, this is a CERTAIN TYPE of kino, not all types.

Playful kino or pushing her away is not what I'm talking about here. Also there are guys I've met who are just SO CONGRUENT with kino, that it does NOT come off as wanting something, and it works for them well. So again this is why I say repeatedly that this is for MY PERSONAL style, and that this is the result that *I* get, while others may get a different result.

Now for guys who are coming from a position of being AFCs, again, learning to apply KINO is CYCLICAL.

I remember when I first read the manuals on this board, and they said things like "initiate kino.." or "you ARE in kino, aren't you dumbass?" and cool shit like that.

This helped me a LOT at first, because back then I was so pathetically beta that the IDEA of touching a woman that I wasn't dating already was TERRIFYING. I remember when I first started touching girls when I'd talk to them, I'd get a rush of excitement from it because I couldn't believe I was getting away with it. Like I'd brush a girl's eyelash off her face, and I thought I was James Bond or something.

So this is something all new guys have to go through. Getting physically and sexually comfortable with themselves and other people.

But at this point, I'm realizing more and more that when you look around in a club, EVERY DUDE IN THERE IS GIVING KINO. By giving a girl KINO, you're throwing yourself into the subcategory of guys who lean in and touch without the girl earning it. The venue is filled up with drunken guys all over, and it can come across not as confident, but as BOLD (aka: drunk or just venue-relatedconfidence)

That said, KINO is a *HUGE* part of my game. Particularly,

1- caveman as a DECLOGGER

2- a reward for impressing me

3- kino PINGING (discussed in a recent post I wrote)

4- a playful C&F routine, like pushing her away or spins or high-5s or thumb wrestling

5- something I can use on the FAT OBSTACLES to keep them happy and ignore the target

6- escalation in LATE GAME and phase shifting

1) CAVEMAN AS A DECLOGGER

In game, any error that you follow up with EMOTIONAL RELEVANCE is immediately forgiven.

For example, if you approach, that can be an IOI to the chick. But if you open well, you're in ANYWAY.

Likewise, if she gets angry at you, but you answer with something C&F, its forgiven.

CAVEMAN is the SAME. For example, I may hold back KINO from a girl for a LONG TIME.

This causes her endorphins and chemicals to BUILD AND BUILD. REMEMBER that when you neg or tease a girl, and she kinos you, *SHE IS TRYING TO FUCKING TOOL YOUR DUMB AFC ASS*

Not only is she re-validated instantly if you kino back.. There's more to it.

If you kino her back, the emotional chemicals that you shot through her get DISPLACED and then feel normal again.

This is like when have sex or snuggle with a chick. You keep CHANGING POSITIONS and it feels more intense and better. SAME as why we get bored of sex with the same chicks over and over. We can't get the emotions and chemicals from it anymore, because we are DE-SENSITIZED. If you have sex with your girl 3 times a day for a week, you won't enjoy it as much as if you don't see her for a week and then fuck her.

It's all chemical shit.

So for girls, you see them touching each other alot. They intuitively understand emotional reactions and they are displacing each others emotions. It's all pretty ridiculous from our perspective, but to them it all makes perfect sense.

Remember that KINO has this context, and that there is alot being subcommunicated with the act of touching.

DE-CLOGGING WITH CAVEMAN. Say that a girl is in state, but you just CAN'T seem to escalate. She just isn't biting on the active disinterest stuff. But at the same time, you KNOW that she's in state. What to do? Solution - CAVEMAN HER ASS!

The reason is that if she has enough emotional chemicals built up in her, when you caveman her it will be the BEST feeling of her entire life. She won't stop it, and then she'll BACKWARDS RATIONALIZE that she wanted it. I've had girls I slept with tell me that when I forced them to kiss me, it was the most sexual thing that they've ever had done to them. haa, from an average looking 5'9 fucking EX-DWEEB.. NICE. But why? Because I played on her states effectively.

So this is all buying temperature and escalation related. Cavemanning is something I use to DECLOG a pipeline that isn't flowing properly. I ATTEMPT all other measures FIRST, but if it isn't working for me then I just go caveman, and progress the pickup from there.

You see this in John Wayne movies, where the girl is freaking out, and he pins her to the wall and starts kissing her. She struggles and struggles, and then let's go and just falls in love with him again and everything is FINE. haaa, those motherfuckers KNEW how to interact with women on an emotional level back then, before the women's movement came in and fucked us all up.

This isn't sexist either. Women LOVE guys who do this. It doesn't mean disrespect women. It means that sometimes they want you to help them emotionally, and not annoy them with over-explanation that has no relevance to them. If the chick HONESTLY still pushes for logic, then fine. But until she's made it CLEAR, I assume its emotional help that she wants, from a guy who she's sexually involved with (aka: I'm not her BUDDY)

2) KINO AS A REWARD:

Now given that kino is also something that shoots her with a displacement of chemicals, I also will give her little shots as rewards, to get her into Pavlovian conditioning mode.

This is PUNISHMENT/REWARD type stuff.

If she does something that is obviously in attempt to impress me, I go "OMG" and grab her hands.

Watch as she looks like you just fed her a doggy-treat. Yeah, I'm a bastard for this, but the chicks really like it.

Likewise, I use freeze-outs. It's all emotional related. I'm just pumping them through states. That's ALL I care about.

So if a girl tries to impress you, consider shooting her a little doggy treat (kino) as a reward. Don't let it linger though. Then continue the pickup.

3) KINO PINGING:

Kino pinging is also something that escalates. It's like little "synching" shots that you give eachother. You use it on EMOTIONAL HIGH POINTS, and you'll notice that girls look like they're massively enfatuated with you when you do this.

4) PLAYFUL KINO:

I use PLAYFUL KINO to reap the SAME REWARDS as standard kino, but without giving away that I'm interested.

Playful kino conveys that you're sexually comfortable and confident to impose on other peoples' personal space, but WITHOUT giving the girl an undeniably concrete IOI.

So IMO, it sort of has the best of both worlds, and its also fun for girls and great in group sets.

5) FAT OBSTACLES:

Sometimes I hug and kiss the peer group, to keep them entertained and in love with me.

This is less common, but I've done it and its worked. 'nuff said.

6) LATE GAME ESCALATION:

Girls take on average 4-7 hours to get to a lay-ready buying temperature.

At THIS POINT I'm definetely using KINO to the max. Why? Because they're READY FOR IT.

houghts on KINO:

For girls, getting KINO'd by guys can feel really CREEPY.

Think to when a huge motherfucker touched you or grabbed you in the past, and he was so physically imposing that it kind of vexed you out.

This is how it feels for girls with guys they don't trust yet. A huge physically imposing force, making them feel vulnerable.

Now at the same time, SOME GIRLS LOVE THIS. They GET OFF on this feeling. So use common sense and don't take everything in this post dogmatically, because I haven't had time to cover every angle.


POWERFUL BODY LANGUAGE:

To me, I think that the key word here is UNHESITANT.

Let me think of some examples from the top of my head. AT A BAR:

GUY1: Sees girls up at the bar. He goes up and orders a drink. He sits there and looks over at them once or twice. Then he opens.

GUY2: Sees girls up at the bar. Goes up on a good angle, doesn't lean in or face them too much, and opens. He FALSE-TIME CONSTRAINTS and sits down, and continues the pickup. In the CONTINGENCY that there is no seat available, he KNOWS he can't just stand there, so he kino-pings the hot girl with his hand (this is a trick, they NEVER decline a kino-ping if you're doing well), and gets her to reach out his hand, then pulls her from her chair and sits on it and laughs at her playfully. He lets her sit on his lap AFTER she qualifies herself to him.

AT THE COUCHES OR TABLE:

GUY1: Walks around thinking what to say. He leans down for the girls to hear him, and stands there talking in an uncomfortable position.

GUY2: Walks up sideways like he's about to leave, opens. He then either ways for THEM to ask HIM a question, and THEN sits down as if it was an invitation, OR he does a FALSE-TIME-CONSTRAINT, sits and continues gaming. Notice that in ALL CASES, the *FALSE TIME CONSTRAINT* is what allows you to DISARM the emotion of "is he going to stay forever", and also gets them thinking of ways to make you STAY.

The key to powerful bodylanguage, IMO, not hesitating, and not being afraid to impose on people's personal space, as long as its in a tactful NON-BOLD way. (ie: not in a way that you're obviously TRYING too hard to be alpha, when you're not). GIRLS DETECT PRE-MEDITATED APPROACHES A MILE AWAY. AVOID THIS BY JUST LOOKING SPONTANEOUS, AND FALSE-TIME-CONTRAINING. USE THE 3-SECOND RULE.


GETTING HER TO INITIATE KINO:

Girls LOVE seducing guys, and if you guys haven't realized it yet, MOST sex that occurs is initiated by GIRLS.

Think back to all your AFC relationships. Usually the girl got interested in you, and then eventually after fumbling for long enough you went out and things went from there.

Likewise in a club, the goodlooking guys roll in the club, girls giggle and get hyper around them, and it goes from there.

SEDUCTION IS MORE COMMONLY DONE BY WOMEN.

This is because they are more COMFORTABLE with that. So the key is to leave yourself out as BAIT, and get them to SEDUCE YOU.

That doesn't mean don't lead. What it means is to ALTERNATE between getting her to game you as much as possible, and then leading her at times where its needed.

For me, I don't try to KINO girls into horniness early in the game. I try to VERBALLY GAME them into EMOTIONAL AROUSAL, so that they'll try to kino ME, in order to re-displace all the emotions I gave them.

I tease them and give them a LITTLE BIT of kino to keep them coming back for more, but mostly I just game them verbally. Then, when it comes time to extract, I throw out my arm for THEM to take it.

KEY: Rather than grabbing a girls' arm, just throw out yours for HER to take it. If she's at buying temperature, she'll grab it like its a kid grabbing a candy-bar. Notice that you can use stuff like high-5s as KINO-PING-TESTS. If a girl is at high buying temperature, and you "high-5" her, she'll practically EXPLODE trying to high-5 you. It will be like the most ridiculously enthusiastic high-5 of her life. The same goes for just placing your hands out PALMS UP, and then waiting for her to put her hands on yours.

So for the punishment/reward stuff, rather than grabbing HER, I just throw out my hands palms up, and she grabs THEM. Then I squeeze, and she squeezes back all GIDDY AS HELL. Then I let go, or decide to hold on, depending on her state. In terms of powerful bodylanguage and LEADING, you game her verbally, get her totally emotionally aroused, and then throw out an OPPORTUNITY for her to kino you.

It's just like you initiating kino, but she's COMFORTABLE with this approach.

She will LOVE this.

It conveys that you won't make her uncomfortable at any point, and that you won't be like 99% of all other guys who are pushy and break her state by escalating without testing the waters first.

Girls LOVE sex, but they want to feel comfortable. This is one of the major reasons for flaking. Guys don't "get" buying temperature and escalation. So a girl kisses a guy in a club, but doesn't want to meet up with him again the next day because she knows that he'll LOGICALLY take the same physical-liberties with her that he did the night before. Like, she LIKES the guy, but she feels worried that he'll think that because they made-out on the dance floor that he'll try to make out with her the second he sees her, without escalating her emotional arousal first. So in terms of leading, just game, wait for the signal of buying temperature (maybe her qualifying herself, often other shit also), and then give a KINO-OP to her. At the same time, this is in CONTRAST to "caveman as a de-clogger". I may be planning to pull a girl from the club, and I jut out my arm for her to take but she doesn't do it.

What do I do? Either I re-game a bit (if I think that's necessary), or I recognize it as something that won't be overcome with verbal game, and I go CAVEMAN DRAG STYLE.

MANY girls *NEED* to be cavemanned out of a club. They NEED this logical declogging.

Still, primary modus operandi is game her, provide kino opportunity for her, and then lead and escalate.

GAME = social value, emotionally arouse, pass tests, trust, escalate, phase shift to sexual, close.

1) are you like this with everybody, or just people cooler than you?

2) whoa.. you guys are like the mean cool kids from high school.

3) OK I guess that names are out of the question.. alright, I'll call you #1 and you #2.. #2, please tell #1 that she has a white thingy sticking out of her ear, and that nobody is going to talk to her tonight because its really nasty..

  1. 1, please tell #2 that there is a charm school opening on x-street, and that

she qualifies for instant admission.

4) whoa.. you guys are like unapproachable total A-Crowd..

5) you guys are fake.. this isn't genuine.. you're just acting like this because its club time.. I don't think that you treat people like this during the day.. this fake.. be genuine.

The Elastic Band Snapback Effect

Girls rely on social status as part of their survival. As guys, we know that if we absolutely had to, we could go out into the woods and live alone. Girls, OTOH, are programmed to gain status socially. That's one of the reasons that they're so fascinated with relationships, and that they are attracted to socially proofed guys.

This is all generalization of course, and could be disputed. But either way, viewing things this way will get good results in the field.

Anyway, because of this, most hot girls will always want to maintain sexual power over you at all times. When you tease them, they'll start touching you as a way of TOOLING you.

The "Elastic band snap back effect" is where girls will immediately shoot IOIs at you, the second you strip them of sexual power. You can use this to get them to do things that they wouldn't otherwise do. They garner you some brief fake/temporary IOIs.

But while phoney, you can still use this to your advantage to move the set forward. Here are a few examples:

"I HATE YOU"

"YOU'RE LIKE MY LITTLE SISTER.."

"YOU'RE SO MUCH LIKE MY GRANDMOTHER"

"YOU'RE SO DRUNK.. YOU KNOW, I COULD TOTALLY HAVE CALLED YOU TOMMOROW TO HANG OUT.. BUT BECAUSE YOU JUST *HAD* TO GET SO DAMNED DRUNK, NOW I WILL NEVER CALL YOU BECAUSE YOU WON'T EVEN REMEMBER ME.. WAIT TO GO.."

"ARE YOU ADVENTUROUS, BECAUSE IF YOU'RE NOT ADVENTUROUS I CAN'T HANG WITH YOU"

"I COULD NEVER BE ATTRACTED TO YOU.. YOU'RE TOO NICE FOR ME.. I NEED A GIRL WHO IS MORE BADASS"

All of these have the same thing in common - they garner FAKE and TEMPORARY indicators of interest.

To me, this is absolutely fascinating to watch. The second you usurp their sexual power, they'll go to any length to get it back, regardless of whether or not they're legitimately attracted to you.

This is a what I call a "PROGRAMMING WALL", which I'll post on that later. It's one of many programming walls.

Anyway, what's interesting is that you can use this in different situations.

For example, you're on a time constraint. But at the same time, she's a TEN. And you want her #, so you can at least attempt to game her on the phone.

She's worth it.

What to do? The patented "DRUNK CHICK #CLOSE"

As written above, you use the elastic band effect, and say that she's too drunk to take her #. Of course, typical girl, 9 times out of 10 she'll whip out a pen and paper and insist that you call her. And her friends will even say "You'd better call her" and dumb shit like that. Even though she'll flake. But this is USEFUL because you KNOW that going in, so you can re-game her on the phone and get her to meet up anyway (assuming you have decent phonegame, which even if you don't, this is a perfect opportunity to find a girl to practise on)

Basically, the elastic band effect is a way to get like a 1 minute WINDOW, where you have indicators of interest. It's not a full method. Rather, its a tactic that you KNOW you have in your arsenal, in order to move along a pickup should you need to.

I *love* the "I hate you" line, as a way of re-initiating a stale set. Damn, its so fucking useful for me. I'll have a stale set, and the girl is deliberately not making eye contact with me anymore. So I'll just walk up and say "I hate you!", with a smile on my face. She'll be all "Why?!?!

WHY?!?!?!?!?!" and start hugging me or trying to kiss me.

This shit is so fucking ridiculous just to watch. The girls will do ANYTHING to get back into your good books. You can even OPEN SETS with "I hate you", and the girls will insist on knowing why immediately, and then you can go into some opener based on that.

Where this stuff gets really interesting, is when you start to see it as "programming walls" that girls have. You can start to get SERIOUS insight into female psychology when you understand the reasoning behind this, which I'll post about later.

Immediately she said "Well maybe you should.." It was PURE elastic band effect. She didn't even like me that much yet. It was just her snap back reaction to what I'd said. Although she didn't like me that much yet, it got her to give me some superficial IOIs so that I wouldn't look stupid for following her inside when she was ejecting me. With that time I'd bought, I eventually got her to like me.

My favourites though are the DRUNKGIRL #CLOSE and the I HATE YOU line.

They're very important in my game.

I'll post more about this later.


I'm in NYC tonight.. So I rang up some flakes from Kingston (my hometown). They were immediately impressed that I said I was "working in NYC", as they saw the caller-ID from the NYC area code.

But better yet, they'd say "How long are you staying for". And I say "In NYC? Forever.."

They'd freak out and beg me to come back.. haa, funny how fear of loss puts these flakes in line. I didn't call them for 3 weeks, and then it seemed realistic I was never coming back.

I'll post more on flakes later. btw, I'm still using that "I hate you" as a way to re-initiate sets, and I'm loving it. Here are some routines I've got going lately: IMPROV GAME IVD (true story):

"I sat in on this improv class with my actor friend yesterday. (Then I describe it in detail in a cool way) Yeah it was just for fun. So we did this exercise where we have to make scenarios in these two seats, and carry out the convo in role playing." Then I do the same criticism on their roleplaying as the teacher there did, which was basically not to stall the convo on a boring topic, but to bring it somewhere, and also to act out the situational stuff and make it believable, not stupid.

Then I add the "Accumulate ticks". You do a tick (like an arm twitch), and then keep doing the improv and add a second, third, fourth, fifth tick, until you can't do it anymore.

Funny, and I like it because it helps her to qualify herself to you -> she can actually demonstrate that she's smart and fun to you.

TRUST TEST IVD:

Good addition to the "Best friends Test"

Say "You're taking the trust test". Then say "Give me your hands", and put your palms up for her to take them.

1- Squeeze her hands. If she squeezes back, she passes.

2- Lower your hands, and if she follows with her hands, she passes.

Then TELL her if she passed or failed, and then she'll say "No No No, I DO trust you!" and then she'll always be RESPONSIVE to kino-tests from then on (notice that these are FUNDAMENTAL IOI kino-tests, but I'm just working them into a routine.. btw, for guys who aren't using those kino IOI tests, where the fuck have you been?? They're one of the most important parts of game) I also follow that up with the "Tension Test" IVD, which is just me doing the massage maneuvre (another of my most useful kino tricks, that I posted about alot last month, where I run my fingers up her back and massage her down). Then I tell her things about her based on how she reacted to the move, but its not structured, and I just bullshit it.

Interesting escalation though:

-best friends test

-trust test

-tension test

POW!


KINO-tests

An interesting phenomenon is that when you touch girls who like you, they always go out of their way to touch back.. It seems to be some sort of subconscious mating mechanism..

When I go around the club high-fiving chicks, the ones who want me will ALWAYS try to clasp my hand and keep me there.. I have literally gone up to a chick, high-fived her, and when she clasped my hand I started tonguing her down (before I've even said one word to her).. This has happened a few times now.

If I caveman a chick, she'll tickle me back and shit like that. I pulled a go-go dancer from Guvernment one night with Twentysix, Papa, and No9, just by tickling this chick (It was too loud to talk, so I said "fuck this!" and just started going caveman on every chick that passed me, until I pulled).

She tickled back, and knowing that the kino test had been POSITIVE, I just literally DRAGGED her out of the club, barely haven spoken a word to her. Literally, I tickled and DRAGGED her from the club. Her friends weren't there - obviously (massive warehouse club). She loved it. Point is though, how did I know I could get away with it? Or the insta-tongue-downs? Just by KINO TESTS.

When I do kino opener, sometimes I'll roll up on girls and ask a quick question, then say "you're my new best friend" and wrap my arms around her.. if she's digging me she'll almost always wrap her arm back around me, even if she's in shock for a second and has to do it after when its not really timed properly..

Chicks will also do weird things, like if you hold her hands, and turn around and drop your hands, she'll keep her hands RIGHT THERE in the hopes that you'll re-initiate the kino.

Have you ever been in tightly packed car beside a chick, and she gets out for a sec, but you stay PERFECTLY STILL in hopes that she'll come back to that position? Or maybe you had your leg against hers in a lecture class, and she got up to go to the washroom for a minute. You kept your leg right there in the hopes that it would go back in place.. (never does either dammit!)

This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

Another good test is to clasp hands mercy fight style, and then lower them waist level and see if she keeps it going.

Or butting heads softly/gently, and see if she leans in or not.

      • A really interesting thing that I've also noticed is girls UNWILLINGNESS to

displace themselves physically in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER until they are into you (usually attraction, but sometimes also with deep rapport).

So basically, you may notice stuff like if you try to do the spin-maneuver on a chick who thinks badly of you, she'll refuse to spin. If you say to a chick "your arms are crossed.. you look uptight", and she isn't attracted yet, she'll REFUSE to uncross them.. Literally, she'll keep saying "I'm cold" and she won't uncross them for ANYTHING. Same thing when you suggest moving venues. If they don't like you, it will NOT happen. Chicks just won't displace themselves for guys they don't like.

If you try to make a physical move too early in the sarge, you have fucked up the sequence, and the sarge often ends. HOWEVER, sometimes girls will mumble shit like "not yet", or they might decline a #close or something, but STILL keep flirting and talking to you. That seems to be a subconscious way of saying "I'm not wet enough yet, but if you keep gaming me I may be there soon. Reply With Quote

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